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 Post subject: Fathers sticking their fingers
PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 5:33 pm 
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TUDUHAN :
from : http://indonesian.knowislam.info/forum/ ... .php?t=646

Hihihi....isi bibel serem serem ya :lol: :lol: :lol:
Anak sendiri aja dicolok anunya :evil:


Fathers sticking their fingers
into their daughters' vaginas before marriage in the Bible:


The sections of this article are:

1- My personal note and experience with this issue.
2- Males and Females in the Bible did it to females.
3- Fathers sticking their fingers into their daughter's vaginas before marriage in the Bible.
4- Fathers have full control over their daughters.
5- Why would fathers do that?
6- The entire Bible is corrupted anyway according to its Theologians!
7- How can you justify "digital defloration" to your sister or daughter?
8- Some minority Christians in Europe still do it today!
9- Numbers 31:7, 17-18 further prove that fingers were inserted into virgin girls!
- 3-year old girls were raped by Moses and his men!
10- Rebuttals.
11- Conclusion.







1- My personal note and experience with this issue:

When I was young, I did hear about this sick tradition once from my father; that fathers would stick their fingers covered in a cloth, into their daughters' vaginas few hours before their daughters' weddings, and display the cloth before everyone to prove that she was a virgin. I heard that it was practiced among some people in the Middle East in the very old days, especially in the southern part of Egypt, Iraq, Iran and Morocco. I wasn't sure exactly who these people were, because Egypt has Muslims, Christians and Jews in it. The southern part certainly is mixed with all these religions. So it's quite possible that even some Muslims practiced it, even though there is nothing about this sick tradition mentioned in any Islamic doctrine.

When I read Deuteronomy 22:13-18 in the Bible, as it is explained in details in the article, I nearly lost my mind! I was in great shock! The Bible matched exactly what I heard about when I was young.





2- Males and Females in the Bible did it to females:

Before we get into the fathers and daughters issue, it is important first to know that some males in the Bible did it to females. Let us look at the following information:

"There were, of course, others who might examine accused brides. Dwyer, 63, notes the role of doctors in modern Morocco. In pre-modern times this role was performed by midwives (see Westermarck, Marriage Ceremonies in Morocco, 229f.; Marcus, p. 324. M. Friedman, Ribbui Nashim Beyisra'el [Tel Aviv: Mosad Bialik etc., 1986], 169-170, 263). According to the Midrash Hagadol, Isaac himself examined Rebekah digitally before their marriage (Midrash Hagadol to Genesis 24:67 [ed. M. Margulies; Jerusalem: Mosad Harav Kook, 1967, 411]; according to Pirke Rabbi Eliezer, chap. 16, p. 38a, the examination consisted of digital defloration [ref. courtesy of my colleague, Prof. Judah Goldin]). According to the aprocryphal Book of James, sec. 19-20, Mary was likewise examined digitally for virginity by Salome (New Testament Apocrypha, ed. E. Hennecke & W. Schneemelcher, 385; ref. courtesy of Prof. Tikva Frymer-Kensky and my colleague Prof. Robert A. Kraft)."

(http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/jwst/4q159.htm) [Note #13, read toward the end of the note]

(the article is also located on my site)



An AUDIO file (46 seconds) from the "Banned from the Bible" documentary film proving that Salome inserted her finger into Mary.



Interpreter's Voice:

Dr. David Scholer
New Testament, Fuller Theological Seminary

(The film can be purchased from the History Channel's web site)



The reason I copied Mr. Jeffrey H. Tigay's article on my site is to prevent it from vanishing from the internet someday. Many valuable articles were lost without permanent preservation on the internet.

Anyway, let us look the "digital defloration" key words in his quote:

Digital: "\Dig"i*tal\, a. [L. digitals.] Of or performance to the fingers, or to digits; done with the fingers; as, digital compression; digital examination."

(http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=digital)


Defloration: "\Def`lo*ra"tion\, n. [LL. defloratio: cf. F. d['e]floration.] 1. The act of deflouring; as, the defloration of a virgin. --Johnson."

(http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Defloration)


Also, Defloration mean: "1. The act of deflowering.
2. Rupture of the hymen, typically in sexual intercourse."

(http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=defloration%20)


So in other words, digital defloration means inserting a finger or thumb into a virgin female's vagina to cause her to bleed and take away her virginity. So when Salome himself did digital defloration to Mary (Jesus' mother), and Isaac "himself" did digital defloration to Rebekah, it means that both mentioned men had inserted their fingers into the mentioned female' vaginas.





3- Fathers sticking their fingers into their daughters in the Bible:

Let us look at the following Verses in the Bible: "If a man takes a wife and, after laying with her, dislikes her and slanders her and gives her a bad name, saying, 'I married this woman but when I approached her, I did not find proof of her virginity,' then the girl's father and mother shall bring proof [how do you think they would do that?] that she was a virgin to the town elders at the gate. The girl's father will say to the elders, 'I gave my daughter in marriage to this man, but he dislikes her. Now he has slandered her and said, 'I did not find your daughter to be a virgin.' But here is the proof of my daughter's virginity.' Then her parents shall display the cloth [the father would literally stick his two fingers covered with a piece of cloth into his daughter's vagina before she gets married and keep that bloody cloth for as long as his daughter is married] with before the elders of the town, and the elders shall take the man and punish him. (From the NIV Bible, Deuteronomy 22:13-18)"

Here is a more clear translation from Hebrew Resources: "The girl's father and mother shall produce the evidence of the girl's virginity before the elders of the town at the gate. And the girl's father shall say to the elders, "I gave this man my daughter to wife, but he had taken an aversion to her; so he has made up charges, saying, 'I did not find your daughter a virgin.' But here is the evidence of my daughter's virginity!" And they shall spread out the cloth before the elders of the town. (From the New JPS translation, Deuteronomy 22:15-17)"

The New JPS translation of Deuteronomy 22:15-17 makes it even more clear about having the parents of the girl displaying the bloody piece of cloth before the elders of the town.

According to the Talmud, the cloth should be "A cloth of less than 3 square finger-breadths. (From the Talmud, Eruvin 29b-30a and Succah 16a)", and before it is being used, it should be "soft, woolen and clean. (From the Talmud, Niddah 17a)"





4- Fathers have full control over their daughters:

The thing that we all must know is that the father in the Bible has full control over his daughters. Let us look at few quotes from Talmudic and Biblical resources:

The father has the right to force their daughters into marriage: "The father has the obligation to marry off his daughters. (From the Talmud, Kiddushin 29a, 30b)", and "Marrying off one's daughter as soon after she reaches adulthood as possible, even to one's Slave. (From the Talmud, Pesachim 113a)"

The father even has the right to sell his daughter as a servant (slave girl) to other men: "If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as menservants do. If she does not please the master who has selected her for himself, he must let her be redeemed. He has no right to sell her to foreigners, because he has broken faith with her. (From the NIV Bible, Exodus 21:7-8)"

There is even pre-arranged marriage before the child is even born!

People before they are even born are arranged for marriage: "A Divine Voice announces who a soon-to-be-born boy and girl will marry when they grow up. (From the Talmud, Moed Katan 18b, Sotah 2a, Moed Katan 18b and Moed Katan 18b)"



A small rebuttal to the Christian "Answering Islam" team, between me (Osama Abdallah) and Jim:

Jim- Defloration is the act of rupturing the hymen during sexual intercourse. Therefore the man can't stick his hand into the woman's vagina according to Mr. Abdallah. How can you have sexual intercourse and then stick your hand and a cloth at the same time in a woman's vagina. Make no sense does it? Then again most of Mr Abdallah's material makes no sense.

Osama- Who mentioned sexual intercourse here Jim? The woman's virginity can be taken through a person's hands, a father's finger inside his daughter. As I showed above, "digital defloration" means inserting a finger or thumb into the woman's vagina.


I had some Christians raise high objections to this point, and some had even criticized me of being a "liar". Well, beside from the above references that clearly prove my point, if you still do not believe me then go and seek it among OLD MIDDLE EASTERN Jews for yourself. Also, using your own personal common sense, explain to me what the Bible means by "her parents shall display the cloth" and its relationship to the girl's virginity? If the husband is the one to take his wife's virginity through sexual intercourse, then what would having the girl's parents displaying "the cloth" have anything to do with it?

You might then think, then how would the husband be able to know whether his wife was ever touched by another man if her father took her virginity away from her before marriage?

My answer to this question is that some men can tell by instinct whether their wives had previous relationships before when they sleep with their wives. This however is very difficult and doesn't apply to all men, especially when their wives are good in faking it. In the old Jewish culture fathers were to take their daughters' virginity and must keep the bloody cloth for as long as their daughters were married as a solid proof.

That is why the Bible mentions "the cloth" and orders the parents to use it as a proof. Using your own common sense, the cloth would not be a clean one like anyone you have at home. It has to be a bloody one.

These laws however are not GOD Almighty's Laws, even though they are considered as such. These are old Jewish Laws that had corrupted the Bible:

"`How can you say, "We [the Jews] are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?' (From the NIV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)"

The Revised Standard Version makes it even clearer: "How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie. (From the RSV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)"

In either translation, we clearly see that the Jews had so much corrupted the Bible with their man-made cultural laws, that they had turned the Bible into a lie!





5- Why would fathers do that?

Back in the old Biblical days, if a girl commits fornication, she would bring a big shame to the family. The family would lose their reputation and respect in the town. That is why you see Biblical verses such as the following:

"And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire. (From the NIV Bible, Leviticus 21:9)"

"...and the birth of ANY daughter is a loss. (From the New Jerusalem Bible, Ecclesiasticus 22:3)"

"Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a woman have conceived seed, and born a MALE child: then she shall be unclean SEVEN DAYS; according to the days of the separation for her infirmity shall she be unclean. And in the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised. And she shall then continue in the blood of her purifying THIRTY THREE days; she shall touch no hallowed thing, nor come into the sanctuary, until the days of her purifying be fulfilled. But if she bear a FEMALE child, then she shall be unclean TWO WEEKS, as in her separation: and she shall continue in the blood of her purifying SIXTY SIX days. (From the NIV Bible, Leviticus 12:2-5)"


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 19, 2006 5:44 pm 
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Merdeka dlm Kristus
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Joined: Fri Jun 09, 2006 5:20 pm
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Quote:
Hihihi....isi bibel serem serem ya :lol: :lol: :lol:
Anak sendiri aja dicolok anunya :evil:


Fathers sticking their fingers into their daughters' vaginas before marriage in the Bible:

The sections of this article are:

1- My personal note and experience with this issue.
2- Males and Females in the Bible did it to females.
3- Fathers sticking their fingers into their daughter's vaginas before marriage in the Bible.
4- Fathers have full control over their daughters.
5- Why would fathers do that?
6- The entire Bible is corrupted anyway according to its Theologians!
7- How can you justify "digital defloration" to your sister or daughter?
8- Some minority Christians in Europe still do it today!
9- Numbers 31:7, 17-18 further prove that fingers were inserted into virgin girls!
- 3-year old girls were raped by Moses and his men!
10- Rebuttals.
11- Conclusion.


1- My personal note and experience with this issue:

When I was young, I did hear about this sick tradition once from my father; that fathers would stick their fingers covered in a cloth, into their daughters' vaginas few hours before their daughters' weddings, and display the cloth before everyone to prove that she was a virgin. I heard that it was practiced among some people in the Middle East in the very old days, especially in the southern part of Egypt, Iraq, Iran and Morocco. I wasn't sure exactly who these people were, because Egypt has Muslims, Christians and Jews in it. The southern part certainly is mixed with all these religions. So it's quite possible that even some Muslims practiced it, even though there is nothing about this sick tradition mentioned in any Islamic doctrine.

When I read Deuteronomy 22:13-18 in the Bible, as it is explained in details in the article, I nearly lost my mind! I was in great shock! The Bible matched exactly what I heard about when I was young.



JAWAB :


* Deuteronomy 22:13-18 & 19
22:13 "Apabila seseorang mengambil isteri dan setelah menghampiri perempuan itu, menjadi benci kepadanya,
KJV : If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her,
Hebrew Translit : KI-YIKAKH ISH ISHA UVA ELEIHA USENEA

22:14 menuduhkan kepadanya perbuatan yang kurang senonoh dan membusukkan namanya dengan berkata: Perempuan ini kuambil menjadi isteriku, tetapi ketika ia kuhampiri, tidak ada kudapati padanya tanda-tanda keperawanan --
KJV : And give occasions of speech against her, and bring up an evil name upon her, and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid:
Hebrew Translit : VESAM LA ALILOT DEVARIM VEHOTSI ALEIHA SHEM RA VEAMAR ET-HAISHA HAZOT LAKAKHTI VAEKRAV ELEIHA VELO-MATSATI LA BETULIM

22:15 maka haruslah ayah dan ibu gadis itu memperlihatkan tanda-tanda keperawanan gadis itu kepada para tua-tua kota di pintu gerbang.
KJV : Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate:
Hebrew Translit : VELAKAKH AVI HANAARA VEIMA VEHOTSIU ET-BETULEI HANAARA EL-ZIKNEI HAIR HASHARA

22:16 Dan ayah si gadis haruslah berkata kepada para tua-tua itu: Aku telah memberikan anakku kepada laki-laki ini menjadi isterinya, lalu ia menjadi benci kepadanya,
KJV : And the damsel's father shall say unto the elders, I gave my daughter unto this man to wife, and he hateth her;
Hebrew Translit : VEAMAR AVI HANAARA EL-HAZEKENIM ET-BITI NATATI LAISH HAZE LEISHA VAYISNAEHA

22:17 dan ketahuilah, ia menuduhkan perbuatan yang kurang senonoh dengan berkata: Tidak ada kudapati tanda-tanda keperawanan pada anakmu. Tetapi inilah tanda-tanda keperawanan anakku itu. Lalu haruslah mereka membentangkan kain itu di depan para tua-tua kota.
KJV : And, lo, he hath given occasions of speech against her, saying, I found not thy daughter a maid; and yet these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city.
Hebrew Translit : VEHINE-HU SAM ALILOT DEVARIM LEMOR LO-MATSATI LEVITKHA BETULIM VEELE BETULEI VITI UFARSU HASIMLA LIFNEI ZIKNEI HAIR

22:18 Maka haruslah para tua-tua kota itu mengambil laki-laki itu, menghajar dia
KJV : And the elders of that city shall take that man and chastise him;
Hebrew Translit : VELAKKHU ZIKNEI HAIR-HAHIV ET-HAISH VEYISRU OTO

22:19 mendenda dia seratus syikal perak dan memberikan perak itu kepada ayah si gadis -- karena laki-laki itu telah membusukkan nama seorang perawan Israel. Perempuan itu haruslah tetap menjadi isterinya; selama hidupnya tidak boleh laki-laki itu menyuruh dia pergi.
KJV : And they shall amerce him in an hundred shekels of silver, and give them unto the father of the damsel, because he hath brought up an evil name upon a virgin of Israel: and she shall be his wife; he may not put her away all his days.
Hebrew Translit : VEANSHU OTO MEA KHESEF VENATNU LAAVI HANAARA KI HOTSI SHEM RA AL BETULAT YISRAEL VELO-TIHYE LEISHA LO-YUKHAL LESHALKHA KOL-YAMAV


Ulangan pasal 22 adalah pasal yang khusus mengatur tentang "HUKUM PERKAWINAN" atau dalam Alkitab Bahasa Inggris diberi judul perikop "LAWS OF SEXUAL MORALITY"


Ayat-ayat diatas adalah melindungi pada kaum perempuan agar mereka tidak mendapat perlakuan buruk dari suami yang baru saja menikahinya dengan memberikan tuduhan ‘tidak benar’ tentang ‘ketidak-perawanan’ perempuan yang dinikahinya.

Ayat diatas sama sekali bukan merupakan 'pelecehan seksual' atau apapun yang dituduhkan oleh penulis. Silahkan anda baca dengan seksama ayat-ayat diatas termasuk rujukan bahasa aslinya.


Quote:
2- Males and Females in the Bible did it to females:

Before we get into the fathers and daughters issue, it is important first to know that some males in the Bible did it to females. Let us look at the following information:

"There were, of course, others who might examine accused brides. Dwyer, 63, notes the role of doctors in modern Morocco. In pre-modern times this role was performed by midwives (see Westermarck, Marriage Ceremonies in Morocco, 229f.; Marcus, p. 324. M. Friedman, Ribbui Nashim Beyisra'el [Tel Aviv: Mosad Bialik etc., 1986], 169-170, 263). According to the Midrash Hagadol, Isaac himself examined Rebekah digitally before their marriage (Midrash Hagadol to Genesis 24:67 [ed. M. Margulies; Jerusalem: Mosad Harav Kook, 1967, 411]; according to Pirke Rabbi Eliezer, chap. 16, p. 38a, the examination consisted of digital defloration [ref. courtesy of my colleague, Prof. Judah Goldin]). According to the aprocryphal Book of James, sec. 19-20, Mary was likewise examined digitally for virginity by Salome (New Testament Apocrypha, ed. E. Hennecke & W. Schneemelcher, 385; ref. courtesy of Prof. Tikva Frymer-Kensky and my colleague Prof. Robert A. Kraft)."

(http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/jwst/4q159.htm) [Note #13, read toward the end of the note]

(the article is also located on my site)



An AUDIO file (46 seconds) from the "Banned from the Bible" documentary film proving that Salome inserted her finger into Mary.



Interpreter's Voice:

Dr. David Scholer
New Testament, Fuller Theological Seminary

(The film can be purchased from the History Channel's web site)



The reason I copied Mr. Jeffrey H. Tigay's article on my site is to prevent it from vanishing from the internet someday. Many valuable articles were lost without permanent preservation on the internet.

Anyway, let us look the "digital defloration" key words in his quote:

Digital: "\Dig"i*tal\, a. [L. digitals.] Of or performance to the fingers, or to digits; done with the fingers; as, digital compression; digital examination."

(http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=digital)


Defloration: "\Def`lo*ra"tion\, n. [LL. defloratio: cf. F. d['e]floration.] 1. The act of deflouring; as, the defloration of a virgin. --Johnson."

(http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Defloration)


Also, Defloration mean: "1. The act of deflowering.
2. Rupture of the hymen, typically in sexual intercourse."

(http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=defloration%20)

So in other words, digital defloration means inserting a finger or thumb into a virgin female's vagina to cause her to bleed and take away her virginity. So when Salome himself did digital defloration to Mary (Jesus' mother), and Isaac "himself" did digital defloration to Rebekah, it means that both mentioned men had inserted their fingers into the mentioned female' vaginas.


Penulis adalah mungkin golongan orang hanya ingin ‘menyerang’ Alkitab, itu saja, sedangkan yang dituduhkan tidak berdasar.
Terhadap “Undang-Undang Perkawinan” dalam tradisi Talmud ini mereka hanya membuat opini-opini dengan tujuan menjelek-jelekan saja.
Mari kita selidiki pada ayat yang dipermasalahkan itu, apakah benar menjadi dasar bahwa Alkitab memerintahkan sesuatu ‘pelecehan’ terhadap hak-hak maupun martabat perempuan ? Apakah benar Isaac memeriksa keperawanan Rebekah sebelum mereka menikah seperti yang dituduhkan diatas?


* Genesis 24:67:
Lalu Ishak membawa Ribka ke dalam kemah Sara, ibunya, dan mengambil dia menjadi isterinya. Ishak mencintainya dan demikian ia dihiburkan setelah ibunya meninggal.

KJV : And Isaac brought her into his mother Sarah's tent, and took Rebekah, and she became his wife; and he loved her: and Isaac was comforted after his mother's death.
Hebrew Translit : VAYEVIEHA YITSKHAK HAOHELA SARA IMO VAYIKAKH ET-RIVKA VATEHI-LO LEISHA VAYEEHAVEHA VAYINAKHEM YITSKHAK AKHAREI IMO


Ayat diatas menceritakan bahwa Ishak menempatkan Ribkah ke dalam kemah Sarah, dengan demikian Ribkah menjadi ‘perempuan terutama’ di wilayah itu.
Sama sekali tidak terdapat hal-hal seperti yang dituduhkan.


Quote:
3- Fathers sticking their fingers into their daughters in the Bible:

Let us look at the following Verses in the Bible: "If a man takes a wife and, after laying with her, dislikes her and slanders her and gives her a bad name, saying, 'I married this woman but when I approached her, I did not find proof of her virginity,' then the girl's father and mother shall bring proof [how do you think they would do that?] that she was a virgin to the town elders at the gate. The girl's father will say to the elders, 'I gave my daughter in marriage to this man, but he dislikes her. Now he has slandered her and said, 'I did not find your daughter to be a virgin.' But here is the proof of my daughter's virginity.' Then her parents shall display the cloth [the father would literally stick his two fingers covered with a piece of cloth into his daughter's vagina before she gets married and keep that bloody cloth for as long as his daughter is married] with before the elders of the town, and the elders shall take the man and punish him. (From the NIV Bible, Deuteronomy 22:13-18)"

Here is a more clear translation from Hebrew Resources: "The girl's father and mother shall produce the evidence of the girl's virginity before the elders of the town at the gate. And the girl's father shall say to the elders, "I gave this man my daughter to wife, but he had taken an aversion to her; so he has made up charges, saying, 'I did not find your daughter a virgin.' But here is the evidence of my daughter's virginity!" And they shall spread out the cloth before the elders of the town. (From the New JPS translation, Deuteronomy 22:15-17)"

The New JPS translation of Deuteronomy 22:15-17 makes it even more clear about having the parents of the girl displaying the bloody piece of cloth before the elders of the town.

According to the Talmud, the cloth should be "A cloth of less than 3 square finger-breadths. (From the Talmud, Eruvin 29b-30a and Succah 16a)", and before it is being used, it should be "soft, woolen and clean. (From the Talmud, Niddah 17a)"



Silahkan baca kembali kutipan ayat diatas (Deuteronomy 22:13-18 ), bahwa sama sekali tidak ada urusan soal ‘jari si-ayah yang masuk’. Maka tuduhan ini sebaiknya kita abaikan saja, karena tidak berdasar.

Mengenai ‘membentangkan kain tanda-keperawanan’ hal ini (pada masa itu) perlu dilakukan oleh orang-tua (ayah-ibu) mempelai perempuan (istri), untuk memberikan bukti kepada para tua-tua kota. Maka seandainya tuduhan dari ‘mempelai laki-laki (suami)’ itu tidak-benar. Maka si-suami harus dihukum atas kepalsuan tuduhannya itu (ayat 18 dan 19) dan bandingkan dengan Deuteronomy 25:1-3.


Selanjutnya mari kita baca ayat-ayat berikutnya :


* Deuteronomy 22:20-21

22:20 Tetapi jika tuduhan itu benar dan tidak didapati tanda-tanda keperawanan pada si gadis,
KJV : But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel:
Hebrew Translit, VEIM-EMET HAYA HADAVAR HAZE LO-NIMTSEU VETULIM LANAARA

22:21 maka haruslah si gadis dibawa ke luar ke depan pintu rumah ayahnya, dan orang-orang sekotanya haruslah melempari dia dengan batu, sehingga mati -- sebab dia telah menodai orang Israel dengan bersundal di rumah ayahnya. Demikianlah harus kauhapuskan yang jahat itu dari tengah-tengahmu
KJV : Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.
Hebrew Translit, VEHOTSIU ET-HANAARA EL-PETAKH BEIT-AVIHA USEKALUHA ANSHEI IRA BA'AVANIM VAMETA KI-ASTA NEVALA BEYISRAEL LIZNOT BEIT AVIHA UVIARTA HARA MIKIRBEKHA


Apabila yang dituduhkan si-suami adalah benar, maka mempelai perempuan yang bersalah harus dihukum pula, sebab ia telah melakukan kekejian dan mempermalukan orang Israel. Di dalam masyarakat Israel dimana bukti menjadi penentu dan diakui secara hukum. Tentang hukum perzinahan ini dapat pula anda lihat di Deuteronomy 5:18, Leviticus 18:20, 29 dan Leviticus 20:10.

Maka hukum Perkawinan ini diciptakan agar umat Israel menjunjung tinggi kesucian dalam perkawinan.


Quote:
4- Fathers have full control over their daughters:

The thing that we all must know is that the father in the Bible has full control over his daughters. Let us look at few quotes from Talmudic and Biblical resources:

The father has the right to force their daughters into marriage: "The father has the obligation to marry off his daughters. (From the Talmud, Kiddushin 29a, 30b)", and "Marrying off one's daughter as soon after she reaches adulthood as possible, even to one's Slave. (From the Talmud, Pesachim 113a)"

The father even has the right to sell his daughter as a servant (slave girl) to other men: "If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as menservants do. If she does not please the master who has selected her for himself, he must let her be redeemed. He has no right to sell her to foreigners, because he has broken faith with her. (From the NIV Bible, Exodus 21:7-8 )"

There is even pre-arranged marriage before the child is even born!

People before they are even born are arranged for marriage: "A Divine Voice announces who a soon-to-be-born boy and girl will marry when they grow up. (From the Talmud, Moed Katan 18b, Sotah 2a, Moed Katan 18b and Moed Katan 18b)"


A small rebuttal to the Christian "Answering Islam" team, between me (Osama Abdallah) and Jim:

Jim- Defloration is the act of rupturing the hymen during sexual intercourse. Therefore the man can't stick his hand into the woman's vagina according to Mr. Abdallah. How can you have sexual intercourse and then stick your hand and a cloth at the same time in a woman's vagina. Make no sense does it? Then again most of Mr Abdallah's material makes no sense.

Osama- Who mentioned sexual intercourse here Jim? The woman's virginity can be taken through a person's hands, a father's finger inside his daughter. As I showed above, "digital defloration" means inserting a finger or thumb into the woman's vagina.


I had some Christians raise high objections to this point, and some had even criticized me of being a "liar". Well, beside from the above references that clearly prove my point, if you still do not believe me then go and seek it among OLD MIDDLE EASTERN Jews for yourself. Also, using your own personal common sense, explain to me what the Bible means by "her parents shall display the cloth" and its relationship to the girl's virginity? If the husband is the one to take his wife's virginity through sexual intercourse, then what would having the girl's parents displaying "the cloth" have anything to do with it?

You might then think, then how would the husband be able to know whether his wife was ever touched by another man if her father took her virginity away from her before marriage?

My answer to this question is that some men can tell by instinct whether their wives had previous relationships before when they sleep with their wives. This however is very difficult and doesn't apply to all men, especially when their wives are good in faking it. In the old Jewish culture fathers were to take their daughters' virginity and must keep the bloody cloth for as long as their daughters were married as a solid proof.

That is why the Bible mentions "the cloth" and orders the parents to use it as a proof. Using your own common sense, the cloth would not be a clean one like anyone you have at home. It has to be a bloody one.

These laws however are not GOD Almighty's Laws, even though they are considered as such. These are old Jewish Laws that had corrupted the Bible:

"`How can you say, "We [the Jews] are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely?' (From the NIV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)"

The Revised Standard Version makes it even clearer: "How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us'? But, behold, the false pen of the scribes has made it into a lie. (From the RSV Bible, Jeremiah 8:8)"

In either translation, we clearly see that the Jews had so much corrupted the Bible with their man-made cultural laws, that they had turned the Bible into a lie!


Mengenai Exodus 21:7-8, pernah saya bahas di http://www.sarapanpagi.org/viewtopic.php?p=743#743 , kutipannya demikian :


1. Anak perempuan dapat dijual bapaknya. "Apabila ada seorang menjual anaknya yang perempuan sebagai budak, maka perempuan itu tidak boleh keluar seperti cara budak-budak lelaki keluar". Keluaran 21 : 7.
Ayat ini kayaknya sudah kadaluwarsa. Hanya dapat dipraktekan pada masyarakat yang belum beradab.



JAWAB :

* Keluaran 21: 1-11 TENTANG HAK BUDAK IBRANI
21:1 "Inilah peraturan-peraturan yang harus kaubawa ke depan mereka.
21:2 Apabila engkau membeli seorang budak Ibrani, maka haruslah ia bekerja padamu enam tahun lamanya, tetapi pada tahun yang ketujuh ia diizinkan keluar sebagai orang merdeka, dengan tidak membayar tebusan apa-apa.
21:3 Jika ia datang seorang diri saja, maka keluarpun ia seorang diri; jika ia mempunyai isteri, maka isterinya itu diizinkan keluar bersama-sama dengan dia.
21:4 Jika tuannya memberikan kepadanya seorang isteri dan perempuan itu melahirkan anak-anak lelaki atau perempuan, maka perempuan itu dengan anak-anaknya tetap menjadi kepunyaan tuannya, dan budak laki-laki itu harus keluar seorang diri.
21:5 Tetapi jika budak itu dengan sungguh-sungguh berkata: Aku cinta kepada tuanku, kepada isteriku dan kepada anak-anakku, aku tidak mau keluar sebagai orang merdeka,
21:6 maka haruslah tuannya itu membawanya menghadap Allah, lalu membawanya ke pintu atau ke tiang pintu, dan tuannya itu menusuk telinganya dengan penusuk, dan budak itu bekerja pada tuannya untuk seumur hidup.
21:7 Apabila ada seorang menjual anaknya yang perempuan sebagai budak, maka perempuan itu tidak boleh keluar seperti cara budak-budak lelaki keluar.
21:8 Jika perempuan itu tidak disukai tuannya, yang telah menyediakannya bagi dirinya sendiri, maka haruslah tuannya itu mengizinkan ia ditebus; tuannya itu tidak berhak untuk menjualnya kepada bangsa asing, karena ia memungkiri janjinya kepada perempuan itu.
21:9 Jika tuannya itu menyediakannya bagi anaknya laki-laki, maka haruslah tuannya itu memperlakukannya seperti anak-anak perempuan berhak diperlakukan.
21:10 Jika tuannya itu mengambil perempuan lain, ia tidak boleh mengurangi makanan perempuan itu, pakaiannya dan persetubuhan dengan dia.
21:11 Jika tuannya itu tidak melakukan ketiga hal itu kepadanya, maka perempuan itu harus diizinkan keluar, dengan tidak membayar uang tebusan apa-apa."
21:12 "Siapa yang memukul seseorang, sehingga mati, pastilah ia dihukum mati.



Untuk kita ketahui Kitab Keluaran adalah bagian dari Kitab Torah atau "Pentateuch" disebut juga "Kitab Hukum" dan lazim disebut Kitab Hukum Musa karena memuat banyak sekali Undang-undang/ Hukum-hukum, ketentuan, tata-krama dan etika. Hukum diatas adalah salah-satunya.

Peraturan mengenai hak para budak ini khas dalam hukum di Timur Dekat Kuno. Hakekatnya, hukum kasuistik ini adalah pragmatis, tidak bergantung secara langsung dengan salah satu prinsip etis. Seseorang diperingatkan terhadap akibat bilamana ia melanggar hukum ini. Hukum kasuistik ini mengikat Hakim/ Para Hakim untuk memberikan suatu keputusan terhadap suatu kasus. Inti dibuatnya hukum hak para budak ini ialah bilamana sesuatu hal terjadi begini atau begitu maka akibatnya adalah begini atau begitu.

Hukum diatas secara jelas memperinci hak budak dan hak pemilik budak, dan hak-hak atas pemilik budak ini dibatasi.
Maka jika satu perikop diatas dibaca keseluruhan/ lengkap, tuduhan orang Yahudi menjual anak perempuannya tidak berdasar.
Sebab ayat-ayat tersebut konteksnya adalah membahas hak-hak kaum budak. Bukan semua orang Yahudi.


Quote:
5- Why would fathers do that?

Back in the old Biblical days, if a girl commits fornication, she would bring a big shame to the family. The family would lose their reputation and respect in the town. That is why you see Biblical verses such as the following:

"And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the whore, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire. (From the NIV Bible, Leviticus 21:9)"

"...and the birth of ANY daughter is a loss. (From the New Jerusalem Bible, Ecclesiasticus 22:3)"



Kitab Ecclesiasticus, adalah Kitab Apokrip yang tidak digunakan baik oleh Kalangan Kristen dan kalangan Yudaisme, tidak masuk dalam Alkitab Kristen maupun TANAKH IBRANI kanon Yudaisme.

Tetapi, saya akan jelaskan sedikit mengenai konteks yang tertulis dalam kitab tersebut dan sebaiknya dibaca 1 perikop ayat 1 sampai dengan ayat 18 :


* Ecclesiasticus 22:1-18 ORANG MALAS DAN ORANG BODOH
22:1 Seorang pemalas mirip dengan batu yang kotor, siapa saja bersiul karena jijiknya.
22:2 Seorang pemalas mirip dengan sekepal kotoran, siapa saja menyentuhnya mengebaskan tangannya.
22:3 Malu benar bagi seorang ayah memperanakkan anak laki-laki yang tidak terdidik, tetapi seorang anak perempuan semacam itu dilahirkan akan keaibannya.
22:4 Seorang anak perempuan cerdik mendapat suaminya, tetapi seorang anak perempuan keji menjadi kesusahan bagi yang melahirkannya.
22:5 Anak perempuan biadab mendatangkan malu bagi bapa serta suaminya, dan akan dihina oleh kedua-duanya.
22:6 Seperti musik di kala berkabung, demikian ucapan yang tidak tepat pada waktunya; tetapi siksa dan ketertiban selalu kebijaksanaan adanya.
22:9 Barangsiapa mengajar orang bodoh merekatkan pecah-pecahan, ataupun membangunkan orang dari tidur nyenyak.
22:10 Orang yang bercerita kepada orang yang bodoh bercerita kepada orang yang tidur lelap, pada akhirnya ia berkata: "Ada apa sih?"
22:11 Tangisilah orang mati karena ia kehilangan cahaya, tetapi tangisilah orang bodoh karena ia kehilangan akalnya. Hendaklah kurang menangisi orang mati, sebab ia sudah mendapat ketentraman, sedangkan hidup orang bodoh lebih buruk dari pada mati adanya.
22:12 Berkabung atas orang mati lamanya tujuh hari, tetapi atas orang bodoh dan orang fasik orang berkabung seumur hidupnya.
22:13 Jangan banyak bicara dengan orang bodoh, dan jangan mengunjungi orang yang tumpul; berawaslah terhadapnya, supaya engkau jangan mendapat kesusahan, dan dicemarkan manakala ia mengebas-ngebaskan dirinya. Hindarilah dia maka engkau akan tenteram, dan tidak akan mendapat susah karena kebebalannya
22:14 Apakah lebih berat dari timah hitam? Siapa gerangan namanya kecuali "Si Bodoh".
22:15 Pasir, garam, dan batang besi lebih ringan dipikul dari pada manusia yang tumpul.
22:16 Kasau yang kokoh disambung dalam bangunan tidak terlepas karena segala macam gempa bumi; demikianpun hati yang bersandar pada pikiran yang masak-masak dipertimbangkan tidaklah goyah pada waktu manapun juga.
22:17 Hati yang bersandar pada pemikiran yang tajam adalah mirip dengan perhiasan turap pada dinding terlampas.
22:18 Batu-batu yang terpasang di atas tembok tidak bertahan terhadap angin; demikianpun halnya hati yang takut karena angan-angan yang bodoh tidak bertahan terhadap kekejutan manapun.



Jelas sekali penulis diatas hanya mencuplik separo ayat dan tidak menulis kalimat sebelumnya dalam ayat 3 yang dipermasalahkan itu.
Dalam ayat 3 itu jelas menyebut kerugian mempunyai anak laki-laki dan perempuan yang tidak terdidik.

Perikop tersebut mengajarkan tentang bermacam-macam kebijaksanaan. Bahwa baik anak laki-laki maupun perempuan pada umumnya akan mempunyai nilai bila mereka dapatmembantu atau menolong ayahnya atau keluarga mereka. Ayat ke 6 adalah merupakan konklusi umum yang dapat diterapkan bagi anak laki-laki maupun perempuan.



Quote:
"Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a woman have conceived seed, and born a MALE child: then she shall be unclean SEVEN DAYS; according to the days of the separation for her infirmity shall she be unclean. And in the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised. And she shall then continue in the blood of her purifying THIRTY THREE days; she shall touch no hallowed thing, nor come into the sanctuary, until the days of her purifying be fulfilled. But if she bear a FEMALE child, then she shall be unclean TWO WEEKS, as in her separation: and she shall continue in the blood of her purifying SIXTY SIX days. (From the NIV Bible, Leviticus 12:2-5)"


Ayat dalam Leviticus 12:2-5, juga pernah saya bahas di http://sarapanpagi.6.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?p=41#41, kutipannya demikian :


* Imamat 12 : 1-5 PENTAHIRAN SESUDAH MELAHIRKAN ANAK
12:1 TUHAN berfirman kepada Musa, demikian:
12:2 "Katakanlah kepada orang Israel: Apabila seorang perempuan bersalin dan melahirkan anak laki-laki, maka najislah ia selama tujuh hari. Sama seperti pada hari-hari ia bercemar kain ia najis.
12:3 Dan pada hari yang kedelapan haruslah dikerat daging kulit khatan anak itu (sunat).
12:4 Selanjutnya tiga puluh tiga hari lamanya perempuan itu harus tinggal menantikan pentahiran dari darah nifas, tidak boleh ia kena kepada sesuatu apa pun yang kudus dan tidak boleh ia masuk ke tempat kudus, sampai sudah genap hari-hari pentahirannya.
12:5 Tetapi jikalau ia melahirkan anak perempuan, maka najislah ia selama dua minggu, sama seperti pada waktu ia bercemar kain; selanjutnya enam puluh enam hari lamanya ia harus tinggal menantikan pentahiran dari darah nifas.


Ayat diatas tidak boleh diartikan bahwa perempuan mempunyai masa nifas 2X lebih banyak, penjelasannya sbb :

Pertama saya jelaskan ttg kenajisan ibu setelah melahirkan.
Najis disini artinya : tidak boleh melakukan ritual keagamaan, tidak hubungan seksual, dan hal-hal lain yang berkaitan dengan ketentuan-ketentuan Taurat. masa ini bisa diartikan pula sebagai masa rehat.
Masa ini penting untuk perempuan yang juga pernah saya jelaskan mengenai Hak-Hak Wanita dalam Alkitab

Jikalau yang dilahirkan adalah anak laki-laki : Masa najis pertama berlangsung selama 7 hari setelah melahirkan, hari ke 8 setelah anaknya lahir ada upacara ritual sunat (bandingkan dengan kejadian 21:4) Si ibu boleh menghadirinya. Sesudah itu upacara ritual penyunatan itu, ibunya akan kembali masuk dalam masa rehat selama 33hari.

Jikalau yang dilahirkan adalah anak perempuan : (yang notabene tidak melakukan upacara penyunatan). Masa kenajisannya ini dikalikan 2 yang berjumlah total 66hari, pentahiran dari darah nifas. Tidak dijelaskan dalam ayat tersebut mengapa hal ini diharuskan, mungkin dalam Kitab Ibrani Talmud ada penjelasan-penjelasan lain, yang alasannya mungkin tidak hanya terkait pada alasan biologis semata/ masa rehat wanita setelah melahirkan.

-------------


Hukum Taurat itu EKSLUSIF HANYA UNTUK ORANG ISRAEL. Bila Taurat dimengerti dalam kacamata Perjanjian Lama / Orang Yahudi sebagai hukum-hukum mati, orang Kristen tidak lagi menjalankannya, tetapi kita harus sadar bahwa Tuhan Yesus bukan meniadakan Taurat tetapi menggenapinya (Matius 5:17). Artinya dengan kita mengenal Injil anugerah tidak berarti hukum Taurat kita tinggalkan, tetapi hukum Taurat itu sekarang dimengerti bukan secara lahiriah tetapi secara rohani. Kekristenan lebih mementingkan aspek Rohani.

Allah yang esa dimengerti sebagai Allah yang menyatakan diri dalam Yesus, Zinah fisik sekarang dimengerti lebih dalam sebagai zinah batin, dan soal Sabat bukan perayaan hari tertentu tetapi mengerti Yesus sebagai sabat kita. Keselamatan bukan lagi diperoleh karena menjalankan hukum-hukum Musa melainkan karena iman kepada Tuhan Yesus Kristus (Kisah15). Perjanjian Lama (yang berisi hukum Taurat) tetap diperlukan oleh umat Kristen disamping Perjanjian Baru (yang berisi Injil), karena Perjanjian Baru tidak akan kita mengerti tanpa mengerti karya Allah sejak Perjanjian Lama. Arti Taurat dalam kacamata Injil dan dalam kitab Ibrani jelas terlihat bahwa upacara-upacara Taurat telah digantikan oleh persembahan tubuh Yesus sendiri.




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